Tangled Rabbit (00:00) Welcome to Untangled, a podcast for founders and people considering becoming founders. This is where building a business gets personal. Each episode features honest conversations with founders about standing out in crowded markets, defining what makes them and their work different, and building something that actually fits. I'm Beth Elliott, and I'm glad you're here. Let's jump in. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (00:25) Welcome to another episode of Untangled. I want to jump in and tell a quick story before I jump in with our guest. This week I had the chance to go to a paint night with my husband. And for those of you who have not been to a paint night, it is where you go usually to a place that hopefully has some beverages and some food. You sit down, and there is an instructor at the front of the room who has a beautifully painted picture that you are going to emulate. During the night, that person then walks you step by step through each of the phases of your painting so that you can follow along and hopefully build something that looks as amazing as what they created. I've done these a few times and always been a little bit stressed out. geoff (01:01) so that you can follow along. you You Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (01:12) Right. They're walking you through the different pieces and you're watching them do it and it seems like they have all of it together and all the pieces are coming into play. This teacher this time was amazing as she came around and was looking at everybody's pictures. You had people who would ask things like, How should I change this to do it better? And she'd start by acknowledging the great work that they'd done. And then she pulled out this piece of advice. She said, Don't try to copy me. My painting is my painting. Painting is like being right-handed or left-handed. It's like geoff (01:26) Looking at everybody's. you you It's your Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (01:51) Your signature, it's like your handwriting. Nobody's is going to be exactly the same, and yours is beautiful as it is. I want you to take that into thinking about your business as and as we go into today's conversation. Everybody's business is right for somebody, but everybody's business isn't necessarily right geoff (01:51) signature. It's like your handwriting. Nobody's is going to be exactly like yours. Yours is beautiful as it is. I want you to take that into thinking about your business. Everybody's business is right for somebody. Everybody's business isn't the same. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (02:12) for you. So the point of these radical shifts. geoff (02:14) So the point of these. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (02:17) Conversations is for you to hear other people's journeys of how they got from I used to be doing this to I am now doing this and I've built the perfect business for me. And that business is likely not the perfect business for you, but it gives you a little bit of a step-by-step guide of the things that you could be reflecting on and doing to make sure that you're building the business that's right for you. So I'm excited to jump in with Jeff Carlston today. Jeff, thanks for joining us. geoff (02:46) Thank you so much. That's such a great story. Such a metaphor for life. I love it. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (02:51) It was it was profound. I was ⁓ I was taken aback. I was not expecting to have that kind of moment in the middle of paint night. geoff (02:59) Yeah, it's interesting. You know, the more I think we grow as humans, you may have been the only one having that moment, but the teacher clearly has had that moment before. And then what an awesome teacher to be able to articulate that to people in very unique ways. And so I've learned, and this is what I work with a lot of my clients, you know, the more you like growing is not easy, like self, self growth and self reflection. There's a burden that comes with it because you can't unsee things. ⁓ you're always aware. so the other, the cool side of that is moments like paint night where you, you can really dive in and go, okay, yeah, that what an, what an amazing way to say, be open and trust and attack that self and know, imposter syndrome, what a, an artist, such a cool way to do that. So thank you for sharing that. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (03:54) The other thing that got interesting is that I believe we are all too close to our story. We are all too close to our painting. When you are sitting eighteen eighteen inches from this thing that you are just trying to get masterful. And in those moments where you're not quite seeing the end state yet. You're like, ⁓ this it's splotchy over here, or I didn't do that right over there, or I wish I would have done that better. My husband and I have our paintings now sitting over on the mantel. They're beautiful. They're not perfect, and they're beautiful. And it geoff (04:33) Right, and they're more beautiful because of that story that that teacher told you, right? Because I'm guessing that every time you look at that, it's a reminder of that moment you had with your teacher. And what you do is unique to the world, and there's so many cool things. So there's a story in that picture every time you see it now, too, which is awesome. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (04:37) And for those. It is mine, and nobody else could have created it that way. geoff (04:57) Yeah. Beautiful. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (04:59) So I wanna so I wanna jump into your story. I wanna start I'm gonna start with where you are now and then we're gonna back up and figure out how you got there. So you can tell you can you tell me about your company? Who do you serve? What problems do you solve? Who are you, Jeff? geoff (05:14) Well, first of I'm in Minnesota and it's a beautiful day out. I decided to be outside. So ⁓ hopefully that was not a bad decision. so I'm in Minnesota. Yeah. I started a business. It's called in system leadership after being a collegiate coach for almost 30 years. You know, was at Ohio State. I was at Ohio University. I've been at Concordia University, St. Paul. I've kind of been at all different levels and had been really fortunate to have pretty good success. And it's just been a great journey. And so we decided we needed to move back to Minnesota. And so I retired, you know, and I'm 56 and I have three boys. I'm not retired as anyone out there who knows that, but I needed to, we need to move our family back to Minnesota. So I'd been doing in system leadership. actually used to be called Epic Journey. And essentially what it is, I started thinking about it and was very, I've been very fortunate to have some great mentors, business mentors, and they talk about in-system being a really cool way of articulating my painting, if you will. So, yeah, it's essentially what I've been doing for 30 years and on teams at the division one level, we bring into leadership and we're bringing to companies. it's culture, it's isolation of leadership, it's pressure, it's how do you retain your younger generational leaders, it's everything. So the beauty of what I do, and it was what I loved most about college coaching, is you just kind of never knew it was gonna come your way, right? And so for me, just being able to work with CEOs and CFOs and founders and leaders of all walks and shapes and sizes of, because I know what it feels like to be isolated as a leader. I know what it feels like to have the scoreboard. in front of thousands of people and more online of that judgment and that, that, that intensity. know what that feels like. And so I don't mind sharing my vulnerability, my story. And I also, ⁓ I walk up the mountain with my leaders and, ⁓ it's been really, really rewarding. So that's one piece. And the other piece is culture. mean, everyone talks about culture. Everyone talks about culture and it's just overused. When you're a college coach culture is real. It's a drip drip drip You got to get it right early And it's very fragile, you know, so you have to continuously nurture it don't just get it right and then move on and everything's fine. So and all the research shows out there that if your culture is Fragile or fragmented you're gonna lose really really good people and when you lose really really good people your business suffers and your leadership is reflected in that. we do, I'm sure we'll dive more into this, but that's essentially in a nutshell. ⁓ I come from a very much an athletics team building culture mindset and bring that into, ⁓ I do work with sports and some professional teams, but I love bringing it into the corporate world. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (08:32) I would love to hear the backstory. How did you come to be in business coaching and professional coaching? I I shouldn't say professional coaching because that means something different to you, but you know, people in professional business careers, how do you become that kind of coach? geoff (08:47) Yep. I have a lot of friends who are, who are not in athletics. They run businesses, they founded businesses and I there there's a pattern. I mean, it's so obvious to me now the stress and the isolation is real. I know very few leaders who don't feel somewhat isolated. And what I mean by that is, you know, who, when I'm stressed out, I have to have my act together. I have to be, and this is I'm speaking for all leaders internal dialogue. You I have to have the answers. I need to know these sort of things. ⁓ And when things don't go well, who do I talk to? Right? I don't really want to bring it home to my partner every single day. I don't really feel comfortable talking to the people I'm leading about these weaker moments and these perhaps these pressures and the intensity. And so most leaders just absorb it. They keep it inside. They just grind. They work through. That's what's got them. And they're all very successful. And it's unhealthy. So physically unhealthy. It's not good for the company to be able to think that you have to do this all by yourself. So what I do is I come in and I Essentially as a head coach I work with the head coach of the organization of the company and I work with their people their leadership team and we really start we start peeling away the layers on this and Sometimes it's just it's a different way of communicating ⁓ I Call I call what I do a big piece of it hard equity and so most you most people Will stay in a company even when offered more money or an organization as long as they feel valued They feel their work matters. They feel connected. Right. And that is the job. One, two, and three for the leader. And so retention is something I work a lot with. We build that hard equity and how do you, it could just be walking down the hall or sending a text to one of your, one of your workers and saying, Hey, how's your mom doing? You know, I know she was in the hospital. How is she doing? Hey, really good job on that. on that sale, way to get that thing done. We couldn't have done it without you. It takes almost no time. It just takes awareness. And it is the superpower of all great leaders to build that hard equity within their company or their organization. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (11:25) Will you draw the parallels from the coaching that you're doing now to the coaching that you were doing with the colleges? geoff (11:34) Very similar. You know, and I use the same language. I talk about locker rooms. Okay. I've coached at Ohio State for, for decades. And, you know, I knew in August during our preseason, we had to get our locker room right. And what I mean by that is, ⁓ you know, we had to get our, our new people had to be integrated. ⁓ Our freshmen, if you will, our leaders had to be coached. So they knew, cause now they're. They've elevated their position and you had to have roles had to start being defined and expectations and clarity. ⁓ and you had to do some things outside of that locker room to build connection, shared stories, if you will. And so we would do, we go on a team retreat, we would challenge them. We would do all sorts of things. would compete hard. ⁓ and we knew that if by the end of August, if we didn't have our locker room set, we were going to struggle because we knew we were going to lose. We knew there were going to be injuries. It's the same thing in a business. And I will talk to the owner or the leader. I'll say, hey, where's your locker room? And they'll look at me, what do you mean? We don't have a locker room. Like, yeah, you do. It's somewhere. It's probably, for example, you have a meeting. And then everyone that was in the meeting or 3 fourths of them, they go have lunch. And they talk about that meeting. Or maybe they don't. how they took that meeting into that lunch, that's your locker room. It's what are people saying when you're not there? How are people feeling when you walk out of the room? That's your locker room. And it's the reason people stay. It's the reason people want to come and be a part of what you're doing. And it's also the reason people look. So for me, I use locker room. We use captains. We compete. ⁓ and the leader, your job is to make sure that you are overseeing all of this. And that means it's a lot of work and it's a lot of energy, but it is incredibly valuable. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (13:45) I talked to folks a lot who are starting their business to get really clear on what success looks like for them in their business and their business as a whole. How did you know that this was the right time to start this business? geoff (14:03) Well, part of it was just life. know, I mean, sometimes things come up and for me it was, you know, because of family, my whole family is from Minnesota. My wife's family is from Minnesota. My kids are in that age where we wanted to anchor ourselves and root ourselves in family. And that wasn't Ohio, you know? And so for me, it was for us as a family, it's Minnesota. And so you start thinking about, okay, It's really hard to be a volleyball coach in Columbus, Ohio when your whole family is back in Minnesota and that's where you want to be. And so for us, it was just a decision. It was a life. It was a new chapter in life decision. So, and it was terrifying. It still is terrifying, right? Anyone out there who's starting a business or anyone out there who's a leader, who's trying to figure out they feel stuck or whatever. Like it's, I just. I just think you own it. It's exciting and terrifying. So for me was just, it was life. was, we needed to make that decision. This is where we needed to be. And so, you know, within six months we made that decision, communicated that with everyone, sold our house, bought our house here, and rolled up the sleeves and started getting after it. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (15:28) As you've been building your business, what did you either past tense have to overcome or find yourself still wrestling with? geoff (15:36) Yeah, it's always I use this word a lot with my clients. It's it's always I'm always becoming I'm writing a book now called on becoming and Just think about that word for a second, right? The word becoming is such a cool word because it's present forward It's such an optimistic like you're becoming something right? You're building something and so for me, I'm always reminding myself kind of like that painting that I'm always becoming There is no necessarily destination. for me, you know, I still, I hired really good people to do social media and marketing in the logistical pieces of my, of when I coached, I hired awesome, incredible 27 year olds. And I did it so well that I'm terrible at it right now. And even I try to be aware of that language, right? But it's, it's really the infrastructure part. of the business is the hard part. know the work I do, the coaching I do, the consulting I do, whether it's with ⁓ a multimillion dollar company or a leader of a startup, I know the work I'm doing is really impactful because I see the results and I hear it from them specifically because once someone decides to go on a journey together, it's beautiful. It's awesome. All the little pieces in between of getting that and the social media piece of it. I definitely have imposter syndrome there and I'm definitely leaning on some really good people to help me. So and it's only been I gotta remind myself it's you know it's a journey you know and break stuff break stuff fast you know that's been that's one of the things one of my mentors said it's just break stuff fast break stuff fast you don't have to be perfect now it's gonna be different. six months to now than you expect it to be. And so for me to be able to relay that to my clients ⁓ as I'm going through it has been really powerful. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (17:40) One of the things I talk about with folks is what would your business look like if you didn't have to do the things you don't want to do? Same kind of thing, right? If you don't want to do social media, then how can you have a business where you don't have to do social media? And it doesn't mean that your business doesn't do social media. But what does it mean for you as a f as somebody who's feeding into this business? What would it have to look like to make that happen? geoff (18:04) Yeah. It's a great question. And I'm asking myself that daily, you know, and so I'm, I'm at a point now where I'm feeling very comfortable because like a lot of leaders, like I want to do it. I can figure this out. I got this. And that's a path to not only on health, it's also very inefficient. and if you're not passionate about, like I'm passionate about coaching, I'm passionate about serving, you know, and again, Every single person can say this. There's going to be stuff you're not going to, there's stuff about college coaching I didn't like. Um, but you have to do it sometimes, you know, you, your AD wants you to go to a meeting and learn about something. You better be there. So, you know, there's things like that in any job, but I think the key, and I hear you saying this is how do you spend as much time doing what you love and either find different pathways on those other areas or hire it out. and bring some really good people in that are just much better at it. And so I'm choosing the latter right now because I'm not a huge business. I don't want to be a huge business. And so my infrastructure is pretty minimal. And so I'd rather help other people who have larger businesses and have been doing this or trying to make this shift. I really enjoy working with those leaders and those companies. So once we get my framework into the DNA of their companies, the ROI has been so rewarding to see. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (19:36) I wanna land on that for just a second. When you look at ⁓ I want you to talk about what does success look like for you and your business right now. geoff (19:45) Success right now is, and my wife said this, thank goodness, to me yesterday, it's not financial. ⁓ It's very hard to not say that because, and we all know that part of it is, right? ⁓ It's not the lighthouse, right? The lighthouse right now is serving. The lighthouse right now is building. The lighthouse right now is creating, right? It's like, I'm gonna keep going back to your painting story, because I love it. It's, you know what you're doing? You see the picture, you see the ship or the hot air balloon or the landscape, you see it, it's there. You're not there yet. And so you're just going to take these steps by step by steps and you're going to do some good work along the way. So for me, the good work is serving. The good work is being ⁓ someone that people can lean into. It's listening, it's becoming a better listener. So all these sort of things, and I do believe and I know in my heart of hearts, as long as I do that, as I serve and I do it with really good intention, if that's my lighthouse, then the money and all of that will come. I just want to help as many people as I can. And so that's my definition of success. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (21:03) I am reflecting on your word becoming. I had a great conversation this week as we were talking about what founders need at different stages. And the person I was talking to was so apt at saying: when you first start your business, you are crystal clear on what your offer should be. And by year three, you actually know what the offer should be. geoff (21:09) I had a great conversation this week. Yeah. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (21:33) And it takes two to three years of becoming and being in this world and trying and being messy and iterating to really understand what business works for you and being able to explore that. geoff (21:46) Yes, that's that I find that very true with myself personally and with my clients. think that it's almost it's part of my job is releasing people from fear. Right. And and by do that, by sharing how terrified I've been and continue to be like, don't I never claimed I never gravitated towards leaders who knew everything. I And if you're a leader who feels like you have to have the answer, you're not a very good leader, right? If you say, What do you think? Like you tell me like, right now I'm a little bit stuck. Um, it's a little bit gray for me. Help me. Let's, let's work on this together. Or, know what? Let me, I have someone who, who can answer that much better than me. Let me get back to you tomorrow. Like those are the leaders I want to be led by because they're not perfect and everyone knows no one's perfect. And no matter how great you are, you know, I was one of the more successful college coaches in the country. in some ways, but I lost a lot and I messed up a lot. And I would tell my players like, I'm going to mess up more than anybody here. I tell my staff, I'm going to mess up more than you. Right. That's part of being a leader. You just have more opportunities to mess up. And I think just redefining what messing up means in our own heads and go like, no, this is growth. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm growing. I'm becoming a better leader. I'm becoming. someone that my people, my C-suite people can trust because I trust them. And that shift is, in my opinion, that is the shift from transactionality to transformation. And when you become a transformational servant leader, you make more money. All the research shows that people want to stay. Your retention goes way up and it's, know, it's 400 % of someone's salary to replace them, not to mention all the work you put into that person. So I always tell my leaders, okay, you've lost three people in last six months. Let's figure out why and let's change that because that is incredibly expensive. It looks bad. I know you feel about it. You feel bad about it. And all the time you've put into that person. is now gone. And by the way, they went to your competitor. So when I come and I talk to leaders, I'm like, how much money, what's the value would put on just creating a culture that people want to stay in? And people, by the way, want to join. And clients feel that it's the reason clients come, it's the reason clients stay, it's the reason people come and work for you, and it's the reason they decide to stay. The opposite is true. They'll leave if they don't feel it. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (24:48) What advice would you give to others who are considering considering making a radical shift? geoff (24:54) That's a great question too. You have really great questions. think if it's in your heart, I mean, I just, if there's something gnawing at you, if there's something like, and I don't want to get too crazy, but I'll just say in five years, if you don't make this shift, are you going to regret it on your deathbed? If you don't write that book, if you don't go on your own and start your own insurance company, are you going to regret it? Because you know, you can, you know, you have the talent. It's, really comes down to regret and fear. And so once we peel those back. and we get rid of those and it becomes really clear like no, is, it's who I am. Like I need to, I want to run my own business. I want that freedom. I know it's what I want to do for my family. ⁓ Sometimes it just gets to the point where there is no other alternative. And I'll say that that's, people still stay in those moments where they just, it's only. seven more years. I can do this for seven more years. Well, that's not that's not a good life. Like, hate hating your job. Being unhealthy, being miserable. ⁓ Sometimes the pain of changing becomes less than the pain of pain of staying. And I think part of my work is helping people find clarity and where they are on that on that spectrum. So I'm always gonna be someone who says go for it. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (26:05) Right. geoff (26:30) If it doesn't work out, look at your history of your last 25 years of your professional career. Have you been able to work through stuff? Have you been able to navigate failure? Can you give me some examples of where you you just like you're obviously you're successful now. And so sometimes it's just getting them to peel back their chapters and realize that, yeah, I've been here before. Actually, I was just 37 instead of 47 and it feels different. Yeah, well, feelings aren't facts. So let's start going back and peel back and look at facts and look at all the things you can do and all the strengths you do have instead of the worry of what if things don't go well. So it's different for everybody. I love that part of my job. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (27:20) That's incredible. Jeff, where can our listeners find you? geoff (27:25) Well, I have my website is insystemleadership.com. I'm out on all the social media. So if you look up my name, G-E-O-F-F, or you look up insystemleadership.com, you'll find me. And my phone number, I'm sure we'll put that here, but I love talking on the phone with people as well. So 614-352-9138. I love conversations. I'm out there and I'd love to talk to some people. Anyone who wants to bounce some things around or maybe feel a little bit stuck or want to dive into some of these topics you and I've talked about, it's something I really love doing. Beth Elliott - Tangled Rabbit (28:09) I mean, how many of us can say that we had the opportunity to be coached by a college coach? So come on, folks, like this is pretty incredible opportunity. Jeff, thanks for spending the time with us. Your story's fantastic. for everybody else who's listening, thanks for joining us for another episode of Untangled. We'll catch you next time. geoff (28:14) hahahaha Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. Appreciate you.