Tangled Rabbit (00:00) Welcome to Untangled, a podcast for founders and people considering becoming founders. This is where building a business gets personal. Each episode features honest conversations with founders about standing out in crowded markets, defining what makes them and their work different, and building something that actually fits. I'm Beth Elliott, and I'm glad you're here. Let's jump in. Beth Elliott (00:24) Hello everybody and welcome. I am Beth Elliott, owner and lead untangler at Tangled Rabbit and you are listening to Untangled. Today I am joined by Geri Hubregtse of Align Design Lead and we're going to turn it over to Geri. Geri, would you please Tell us a little bit about yourself, your company and what you're hoping to untangle today. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (00:44) Yeah, for sure. Hi, I'm Geri Huebrex and I founded Align Design Lead, which is a company that is myself and I am helping tech and creative leaders really pause and reconnect and lead with intention. Before this, I spent years as a consultant in digital product. I served as a COO and I've lived the fast paced delivery, delivery driven life. And Align Design Lead really was created from my own experience with burnout and really wanting to lead a more human and sustainable life and share that with others. honestly, as I was thinking about this podcast and what I want to talk about, I was just thinking like, what is really getting me stuck? Because I, I work with, leaders in tech and creative and those are really my people. They're the folks I've been working with for years and years and I've spent a lot of my career in roles where I'm translating what it is they do and really articulating the value that they do to the business. Explaining. the way in which the work happens and why. I did that a lot as a product leader. it's finding, yeah, figuring out, you know, the best way to combine these. Right now I'm doing it as a consultant, a coach and doing workshops, but sometimes feeling like I'm taking like one hat off and then putting another hat on instead of really merging the two. So I'm curious to have a conversation about what that could look like. Beth Elliott (02:40) So as you are. As you're picturing this and you've lived in the world, right? You've been in that space of burnout and are seeing this need in this space. Do you have? Do you have a vision for what really good would look like if it didn't, if you didn't have to make money at it, if it was just your brainchild and this is the thing that you think is really cool. Do you have that vision in your mind? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (03:03) I think that there is a component to it that is number one, bringing people out of their everyday spaces. Whether that's local or in the middle of the woods. You gotta get out of your space and experience different, just. find something that forces you to be in, to take a different perspective. Because what is tricky, I think what is tricky about leaders and what is tricky about living and working in this like fast paced, iterative driven world is that you are, you are in it. I mean, that is the work. Like as you're in it, you're just, going and you're going and you're going and you have to be able to break that cycle to back yourself up a bit and take a breath. And that's a skill to be able to do that. So I think a lot about how to help people do that. One. Two. It takes self-awareness to know that you're in that cycle. And self-awareness is a big piece that I think is so foundational to being an intentional leader. in some cases, you don't know what you don't know. Some people aren't ready quite yet. I think of it as a conversation that I had recently where a person describes a circumstance and then says like, oh, well, it's fine. And then you're talking, you're talking, talking, and then all of a sudden the circumstance comes up again and they're like, oh, but it's fine. And then it's like another thing. In the world, say we're just. just talking about building in the software world, that's a total red flag. when I'm having a conversation like that with someone and I hear that, I haven't quite figured out how to say to them, I could help you with that because they're not, they haven't quite recognized they have a problem yet. Even though it's kind of evident to others, if that makes sense. And I may be just going down a rabbit hole at this point. So. Beth Elliott (05:13) When you talk about... your strategic operations versus this intentional holding of space. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (05:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (05:23) When you and I talk, we've talked a lot about the holding of space for each other. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (05:26) Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (05:27) How do you see that when you see wanting to bring your best self forward in that strategic operations space? What does that look like to you? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (05:35) Mm-hmm. It looks like working with others. who are doing work, whether it's working in a startup with other leaders, like an executive team, say, and how they work together, or a team of people who are working to develop a product. It's really working with them and understanding where they're at. current state and helping them see ways that some process and procedure could help them work better together, share how they work with others. to really optimize the way that they work as a team. Beth Elliott (06:28) do you see this being in line with, potentially being in line with their work? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (06:33) Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Beth Elliott (06:33) Okay. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (06:37) When, when I think about Align Design Lead, I tend to think about the leadership development side, like the very personal side, because a lot of the, the ways that I think about it are self-awareness, understanding how you show up, being, being able to share with others how you and the other piece of that is applying that in your work. If that makes sense, right? That, that application piece is, is the practice. There's like the awareness piece that's that I think comes from coaching and working on that side of side of Beth Elliott (07:09) Yes. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (07:23) who you are, what you bring, how you show up. But then there is a distinct piece that is that action when you're showing up in your team and you're like, I've had a really bad day today, I'm gonna do my best, but know that I'm short fused and it has nothing to do with any of you. Or, let's all take a deep breath. We know that the CEO just dropped a bomb on our team and we're having to rethink our entire sprint for the next two weeks. We, you know, but we can figure it out. Beth Elliott (07:58) you familiar with dojo? the premise of that is taking teams out of role I shouldn't say out of rule. They were bringing teams down to the dojo. I want to say it was like for six to eight weeks at a time, four, six, eight weeks at a time. Premise was, is that they were going to be working in the sprint style mode. They were going to be learning from the dojo masters. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (08:11) Okay. Mm-hmm. You Beth Elliott (08:21) Um, and so they had their scrum meetings, they had their workspaces, uh, so they would come together at certain times. They would break apart at certain times. There was coaching that was happening. You had one dojo master that went between two, three, four different groups that were kind of pod style. And then, you know, at the end of the week for them, they had their report outs to leadership on where they were at in their sprint and next steps and all of the things, but it. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (08:38) Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (08:47) ties in a lot of the pieces that you're talking about, right? So you have a project team, you have a team that's working on something. You have that leader or leadership team that is filtering into it. You're allowing them to, the team to do some really great work through the coaching and the operational side that you're talking about. When they break, you're able to then work with that leader on, these are the things that we're seeing with your team. Here's some ways that we think that you could show up in this space. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (08:49) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (09:14) and during those moments of stress or even just filtering it into the day, hey, we're going to take this time and move into this intentional space to do this kind of work together. And maybe that's where you bring all of your teams together. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (09:22) Mm-hmm. Sure, sure. So it's like a learning lab. Beth Elliott (09:30) Yes. Yes. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (09:31) Hmm? Yeah, it's a very cool concept. When you said the dojo, I was like, I don't know what. So it sounds like they are a coach-player role and that they're teaching these teams how to work. Is that what it was? Beth Elliott (09:49) Yes, if I remember right, and they had a couple of different dojos. know, that they were, if I remember right, they were doing some coding things and agile work, sprint model work. But yes, it was basically the idea of we need to embed this culture into our organization. And the best way to do that is to immerse them into these leadership sanctioned activities that fully baked it into. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (09:55) Yeah, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (10:14) the expectations of what they did in their role. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (10:16) Sure. Wow. I mean, that's a gigantic commitment for them to do that. Their teams. Yeah. Beth Elliott (10:20) Yes, yes. But it's not just a one-off check the box activity. It's now we're committed to, in your case, we're committed to the wellness of our team and creating high functioning teams that are doing great work while taking care of themselves personally, mentally, emotionally, all of the things. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (10:27) No. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very cool. Beth Elliott (10:40) Yeah. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (10:42) just thinking. Beth Elliott (10:42) What are the things that are spinning through your head right now? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (10:45) scale. curriculum. I thought about a retreat in which it's not really a learning lab, but designed more like a Google sprint, where leaders are creating their own plan and their toolkit, you know, what they do, how they take care of themselves, routines they build. Basically, what are your practices that you're gonna do to take care of yourself and to function in your world? And then try it out, because you're not at home, you're not at work, you're kind of in this space where you can try some of these things out. and then, you know, talk about how it went. So, that, that's one of the things that I've been thinking about doing. And it, it's related. It's parallel, you know, kind of to what we're talking about as well on a little bit smaller scale. ⁓ because I'm also very, like, I know you and I have chatted before about. Beth Elliott (11:38) Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓ Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (11:48) my, me being compelled to have a space, a physical space and what that is, what we do there, what it needs to look like to do these things. Certainly when you said what's on my mind and I said scale, that's a really big part of it because The work is... To me, it's very personal You're doing it to build trust with others. You need a safe place, a safe space. And I don't think that happens with really large groups, right? So it's, there's just a piece of it that requires a certain. number of people where it's not like this grand conference type or you know the lab is the lab the studio whatever you call it is There there's there's just an intimacy of it like scale wise And also there's a inspiring component. You you mentioned design thinking. And design is near and dear to my heart. Beauty is one of the values of Align Design Lead and noticing beauty, incorporating that into your life in some way is really, really important. Whether you're just taking a walk and noticing, you know. tulips coming up or something. The way that it can invoke presence and connection, that's a really, really important piece. So, you know, when I envision space, like physical spaces, I envision a space where you would go that that has this openness and this really lack of things anywhere except our natural surroundings so that you're able to just focus on what matters most. self-awareness, the people in front of you, you know, seeing other people, maybe paying attention to what you're eating or seeing all of your senses. So really Yeah, I think we all need it in this crazy world that we're living in. Beth Elliott (14:06) So getting back to that operations side of things, I guess not even just the operations side of things, but thinking of the whole package, what would make you so sad if people walked away from working with you? What would make you so sad in the outcome for them? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (14:11) Yeah. Hmm, just in general, if I was. Beth Elliott (14:24) Yeah, like, let's say, let's say you're like, put all my heart and soul into building this thing, providing these spaces, walking them through my offering. And at the end of the day, Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (14:33) Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (14:35) This was the result and that's disappointing to me. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (14:38) Hmm. Yeah. I think I would be really, really disappointed if... if there was no change afterwards. Like my hope is to invoke that. that spark or that different view of things or that awakening of some kind. And it could be tiny. It could be like, wow, I never noticed that John needs me to. type up criteria in this way. Had no idea. And now, me doing that little thing helps him and helps me do my job better. It could be so tiny. But yeah, it would really bum me out if I worked with someone and they were like, everything feels the same. Beth Elliott (15:22) Mm-hmm. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (15:23) So. Beth Elliott (15:24) So what I'm trying to now kind of boil down with you is when we talk about you talk about leadership level. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (15:30) Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (15:31) You talk about how they're working with their teams. You're talking about spaces. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (15:35) Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (15:39) when I talked about like the idea of the dojo, you're kind of like, but that seems big. That scale seems big. Where you're working with teams in real experiences, in messy spaces, and coaching them through, because I think the fear is that when I think about this, tell me once and I'm going to go and I'm going to just fall back into old habits. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (15:46) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure, yeah, yeah. Beth Elliott (16:03) So what needs to be true then if you want them to absorb and learn and do and grow and probably practice, then what has to be true of how you set up this offering? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (16:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I so your use of practice is spot on. Because all the things that we're talking about are practices. They are not there is there isn't. There isn't a single thing that I would be. Talking with someone about that. is a one and done type of thing. Everything is a practice. So it really is setting up systems for yourself, ways in which your team functions and works together, establishing those practices or a charter or you know, your rituals, there are things that are frameworks and ways in which you have to continually practice and evolve. So it both those kind of scaffolds and then along with that is the mindset work because I think those two things together. you know, you can continuously practice and build and evolve because they won't stay the same, right? Your startup will be five people and then your startup will be 50 people and your process will not be the same for that or it will be 50,000 people. Beth Elliott (17:34) Mmm hmm. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (17:48) which is really where you get me with like the really scared numbers where I'm thinking of like corporations of teams of people of that. So I think my fear is really in that scale, less so like a team. I think this work has to happen at the team level. Does that make sense? And very purposefully and intentionally. Beth Elliott (17:57) Sure. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (18:12) not just here are these outcomes, go figure it out. It's like, how do we, or like, what is it about the way that we're organizing and doing our work that we're not delivering on these outcomes? Like, I mean, maybe it is the outcomes, or maybe it's the way that we're approaching them. It's probably a little bit of both. So. Beth Elliott (18:16) Right. Mm-hmm. Great. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (18:31) I guess another way that I've thought about it is how that bridge of my two sides is really what makes working with me unique. It's the ability to speak the language of the environment. So I think in my case, my specific knowledge is working with people in tech and creatives in that software world, in the agency world. that is the language that I speak. And those are experiences that I've built through like working in consulting, working in agencies, working in project-based work, working in product-based work. So that's the, I think that's the bridge is really that my clients are people that speak that language. and like can bridge there. So I'm curious what you think. ⁓ Beth Elliott (19:24) thinking about when you were, I went, well, I'm going to flip it back on you for a minute, thinking of when you were in that role in an agency, what would have made you want to hire you? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (19:30) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. I did hire me. It's a different person. But I did hire me because I was in a leadership position working for the executive team and my executive team didn't have any experience in that space. I was also... so busy that I couldn't hire fast enough to do all the work. So I had to hire people to help support me. ⁓ Beth Elliott (20:09) and you're holding space for others piece of you though. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (20:12) Mmm! Mmm! Beth Elliott (20:15) Right? So you're bringing both halves together. You can, you can spell out that whole thing on being a strategic consultant all day long. Like, I don't know that you need much help, it's that wellness piece of that's often the nice to have. What would have made somebody like you hire the you with the bridge? Yes. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (20:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. So... Yes. Yes. Me, yes, ⁓ a coach with my experience because I hired multiple coaches and neither one, neither of them had experience in my world. Beth Elliott (20:49) Mm-hmm. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (20:50) So that would have made a difference, I think. When I look back, the person who was the most impactful was the person I worked with while I was doing this proof of concept agency, like building a new thing, and that was her expertise. ⁓ Beth Elliott (21:11) you're talking very much on a one-on-one basis. And what I hear you when you're talking about your business are talking about possibly a one to many. It's one person to a team, right? So thinking of the teams that you had and the leaders that you had. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (21:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (21:31) What would have made you as a leader say, yeah, I'm going to spend because sending a team of eight to a retreat center for however long isn't going to be inexpensive. Like that automatically is like dollar sign, dollar sign, dollar sign. And it's an unknown because they're not going to be in my building and I'm not going to be able to see them. And like there's things that build up into this decision. What would have made you. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (21:38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, a very big thing. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (21:57) want to make that leap to send your teams to somebody like you. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (22:01) Mm-hmm. knowing that when they were there and came back. They were a more solid team. They worked with people who have done this before. They are more efficient and effective because of it. And they're healthier humans. They like have learned strategies to say, I'm gonna, you know, do my best with the software work and I know how to take care of myself in the process. and I have a team leader who is on board. So I think that the people who go through such an experience. see that the company values them and therefore wants to stay. Beth Elliott (22:53) What problems is the person who's buying from you? What problems are they seeing that you're solving? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (22:56) Mm-hmm. I would say... speed, like the problems they're seeing are their people are not getting things done that they thought they should be. Their, the work that they're delivering is not aligned to their, their business goals. Like there's a misalignment. They're like, why are they, why are they focused on that? When I told them that this is our North Star. Like they're not adding up. Retention. So keeping people, they have teams that are like flipping over. Maybe even leaders. What else? People who are just burnt. Like they have problems. They have people who like they are burning out people. Beth Elliott (23:38) Are there any things that you'd watch out for where you'd say, yeah, you're struggling with those things, but you're not my client? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (23:45) Let's phrase the question again. I want to make sure that I'm. Beth Elliott (23:48) Who might be wrestling with those things who really aren't good clients for you? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (23:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah, the person who I'm talking to who isn't like hasn't really figured out that they have a problem. Right? Like, and. Beth Elliott (24:02) But what if they have? They know they have a problem and they've come to you. Are there certain criteria where you'd look at them and be like, no, you're not a good fit because... Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (24:12) because you think you have it all figured out. You're not open to... kind of understanding the complexity of the problem, I would say. It's like, I'm gonna come and I'm gonna do this, and then when it's done, everything's fine. Beth Elliott (24:25) I'll lead you into some of the places that I was thinking in this space of, the world that we live in today, there are teams that are not fully staffed. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (24:28) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (24:36) the world that we live in today, there are people who are not getting paid the amount that they should be getting paid. And those things can inherently lead to burnout, even when the culture is fine-ish, but there's this undercurrent of other things. Where you can have a leader who's at their wits end and they're like, I just need to try something. Are those your teams? They might be. I just wanted to put out like the extreme of Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (24:41) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (25:00) There are things you won't be able to fix and there's things you will be able to fix. What level of complexity are you excited about? You could be like, yeah, that's my team. Bring those ones in too. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (25:01) Sure. Sure, Like eight layers of dysfunction. Beth Elliott (25:16) Yeah, uh-huh. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (25:17) ⁓ yeah, that's a really good point. I think that. I don't know that I can completely pinpoint it. you know, because I've worked in with different clients for so long. you come in with one problem and you identify a lot of others. So I really think it comes down to that mindset is a really, it's so important that, you know, if, Beth Elliott (25:34) Yes. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (25:44) I think that they are people who are willing to recognize that there are challenges that maybe they can't fix either, but that they have to know. Like the example you gave where your team is understaffed and people aren't getting paid what they think. There is no amount of team building that's going to fix those two problems. Beth Elliott (26:09) Okay. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (26:09) if I'm actually let into the conversation at that point, or if people are honest with me in a, you know, conversation I'm having, then I think you're right. They would not be a great fit. Beth Elliott (26:23) I think that's what I'm trying to get at is as you're thinking about your intake process, how you're interacting with people in the wild, there are things that you should vet out in terms of these are the clients that I'd love to work with. And these are the ones that are going to not find success and might diminish my brand after working with me because they weren't a good fit from the start. The other thing that I'll put out there. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (26:25) Yeah. Sure. Yep. Beth Elliott (26:46) I met with somebody recently and in their invite to me, they were very clear about how they were going to walk through just our simple 30 minute meeting. We're going to start off with a moment where we're going to get to know each other with some sort of personal question. I will lead you through a breathing exercise. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (27:02) Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (27:06) We will then restate the intention for the meeting and the timeframe that we have for it. And then we'll go into our topics. It was baked into everything that she did. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (27:15) How was it? Beth Elliott (27:16) It was intentional. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (27:17) Yes. Beth Elliott (27:18) You know, right? It's one of those things where it's, was unexp... and I shouldn't say unexpected because she prepared me for it. But it definitely created a space for what was a set apart experience of when you work with Geri, every time you sit down with me, it is going to be a mindful moment. And I'm going to introduce pieces of how I'm going to work with your team so you can see it in me every single time. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (27:23) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Beth Elliott (27:45) And that way you start vetting out naturally. When you ask, did you like that? Some people are gonna be like, yeah, that was actually really great. It grounded me. It made me focus on my breath and get purpose and whatnot. And some people are gonna be like, I just, I just need to get stuff done. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (27:50) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yes, yes. Yeah, and it's funny you say that. The reason I asked you is did you like it is because my, my reaction is a bit like, ooh, that would be, that would be really a lot of structure that I don't know that I would, you know, be. Beth Elliott (28:01) Right. Hahaha! Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (28:19) that I would do, that I would, you know, like, yeah, but you're right. That is a very, you know, showing up in the way, modeling essentially what you are selling. Yes, yes. Beth Elliott (28:23) Yes. ⁓ you're creating your brand. And I think there is a way, because as you're, when you talk about needing that bridge, you do, you go back and forth very, very clearly of, do the strategic work and I like these spaces. But let me tell you about the strategic work that I did. And I want these spaces. If you really do want to bridge it though. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (28:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (28:53) It is being very thoughtful about when people meet me in these kinds of environments, how do they know that this is different? I shouldn't say anybody, there are a lot of people out there who can do strategic tech advising. Yeah. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (28:59) Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Beth Elliott (29:09) You're different. You're there Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (29:11) Yes. Beth Elliott (29:11) not just to help them get stuff done quickly. You're there being mindful of burnout. And if that's the case, then it is taking those deliberate moments. What's getting what's like, let's talk about you as a person today. And let's talk about your business and how that's impacting you as a person. Can we take a moment for mindfulness on this? And I'd like you to think like Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (29:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (29:32) just little mini exercises in their own comfort spaces. Okay, now let's jump into the nuts and bolts and we're gonna get through this and we're gonna get some really good stuff done. ⁓ To that point, like it's hard to do that in a half hour. I think we had a half hour for the meeting that I had. It was hard to get through it in a half hour and we went over, which is fine. Like we gave to go over and we were very mindful of that. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (29:35) Great. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. yeah, for sure. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (29:58) But think about those things. Be very deliberate when you say you want to bridge, then bridge and lean into some of that things, those things that maybe you haven't done in these spaces because it hasn't been corporate America approved. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (30:11) Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (30:12) But make every space the space. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (30:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beth Elliott (30:16) We are getting to time and I want to be mindful of our time. Geri, is there anything else that you'd like to share with the audience before we go today? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (30:18) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate the conversation and thank you for your time and for having me on. Beth Elliott (30:29) for sure. Is there a way that our audience can find you? Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (30:36) Yes, they can. They can find me. You can find me on LinkedIn. My name, Geri Hubregtse not the phonetic. And then also my website is aligndesignlead.com. Beth Elliott (30:51) Excellent. Thank you everybody for listening in on this episode of Untangled and we'll catch you next time. Geri Huibregtse (Hue-brex) (30:52) Mm-hmm.